Comments for Sunflower Chalice

Comment on Unitarian Universalist attitudes towards Christianity as Aversion Addiction by revtony

revtony — Thu, 12 Jan 2012 23:23:34 +0000

I truly am sorry for people who have been hurt by religion, any religion, especially Christianity. Yet, some of the comments to writing on our UU aversion addiction only seem to prove my point. Our past hurts make us unable to see or hear except that which reinforces the picture we might have of “religion” or “Christianity”. There are nice guys and jerks on every block. One problem our aversion addiction leads us toward is theological ignorance. Many UU’s are in theological kindergarten. It is as if the only idea of God that exists is the old man in the sky who controls everything. Not only are there other religious ideas of God, but other Christian ideas and thinking about God. As soon as some people’s buttons get pushed however, Christianity equals the God image taught by whatever religion or denomination hurt them. For example,you talk about the idea of substitutionary atonement as if My speaking of UU’s needing a saving message must be related to that, as if even Christian salvation must be related to that. What saves us is what makes us whole and brings us healing- amazing grace indeed! What is it that makes us whole and brings us healing? If you don’t need healing, if you are perfectly whole, then you are right, you have no need of any type of religious community and little need of any human community. UU communities in general have no room for brokenness, wretchedness or failure. Only perfect people, with perfect minds are allowed. Is it any wonder our churches are so small?

Comment on Unitarian Universalism as One Big Codependent System by Jim

Jim — Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:56:59 +0000

As a boomer, I think you’re right, Tony. Our generation was most likely raised in a traditional Christian church, and growing up in the 60′s cultural revolution, started to question many things that our parents generation took as absolute, religion being of them. Aversion adiction is a very appropritate term to apply to this, where we neutralize the language and content of Christian spirituality, without really replacing it with anything of substance. I myself struggle with this, when I try to explain to a Christian what Unitarian Universalism is and what it means to me. It’s easy to say what WE DO NOT believe in, but pushed to say what WE DO believe in, is difficult at best. Christians have no problem telling us what they believe in, and can site scripture and verse. Thanks for an insightful article.

Comment on Unitarian Universalist attitudes towards Christianity as Aversion Addiction by Robin Woodsong

Robin Woodsong — Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:06:17 +0000

I finally left the UU church because of the constant Christian references. I don’t care what myths people live by but the constant bombardment of Christian references drove me out. After the last service I went to, about the joys of Christianity, we ended with amazing grace.

“Amazing grace, how sweet a sound, that saved a wretch like me.”

I spent too many years being told what a wretch I was in Christian churches to sit still for being told what a wretch I was in a UU church. Yes, I am allergic to Christianity, any any other religion that insists people are wretched. Does that mean I am “addicted” to my allergy? Or am I simply repulsed by the soul-crushing message of so many religions?

The author states that “The aversion addiction related to being repulsed by Christianity inhibits grace, forgiveness and love from operating in our communities.” as if those who are repulsed by Christianity can never show mercy, forgiveness and love.

As if Muslims don’t know of mercy, Buddhist don’t show forgiveness and Pagans don’t know of love.

“…mission is not just engaging in social justice, but grounding the community in a saving message built on a deep theological foundation…”

The author is again saying that we need to “ground” the community in a “saving” message. In Christian terms evangelize (grounding) the community to the salvational (saving) message of Christ on the cross and his death for our sins. Is our “saving message” saving us from sin? If not, what is a “saving message” saving us from?

And no, we do not need to deeply study God (Theo) to engage in social justice. All we need is to “Affirm and promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person and promote justice, equity, and compassion in human relations.”

No Gods, no saving message, no theology is at the root of what we are or what we can accomplish. We are compassionate and empathic beings, and all of the theologic overlay of the various religions tend to hinder that compassion and empathy, not enhance it.

Comment on Unitarian Universalist attitudes towards Christianity as Aversion Addiction by Connie Chin

Connie Chin — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 07:58:25 +0000

I found your post very interesting because I never thought of UU’s aversion to Christianity as an addiction. I wish I had read your post before our church Small Group Ministry meeting today when we were discussing UU’s Seven Principles. I had to speak out on how our congregation does not really practice the 3rd principle and when I told the group that as a UU Christian Fellowship Small Group leader for the past seven years in our congregation, I have heard many comments over the years that are definitely unacceptable for acclaimed UU’s to say. I gave them examples members in our Christian group have heard during our services or spoken directly to us and most of them were shocked but a few nodded their heads in agreement and a new UU member said she even heard “hissing.” I think I brought awareness of how some UU’s have an “aversion addiction” to the words “God, Jesus and prayer.” I have been a UU since the 70′s and only discovered the UUCF group 10 years ago at a GA meeting. Every time I can attend a UUCF Revival (such as at Carrollton) my spiritual life freely following Jesus’ teachings grows. Thanks, Tony for your blog postings.

Comment on Unitarian Universalist attitudes towards Christianity as Aversion Addiction by UUnderstand

UUnderstand — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 01:32:27 +0000

Contrary to what seems to be a popular myth among some UU Christians, not all adult non-Christian UU converts are refugees from emotionally (perhaps even physically) abusive Christian churches. Even if we have a Universalist perspective and reject the disturbing ideas of hell and original sin, we may be troubled by the idea of any human being who calls him/herself God, God’s only child, or God’s chosen, regardless if the person’s name is Jesus, Buddha, or something else entirely: either we are all God’s children, or no one is. In addition, as Karen Luerssen expressed above, many of us don’t want to be “compartmentalized.” UUs tend to be freethinkers in various areas of their lives. In America, perhaps some UUs reject Christianity because it is a cultural default setting that too many people appear to accept for reasons of convenience and conformity rather than true commitment. If we lived in Israel, we would reject Judaism. If we lived in Saudi Arabia, we would reject Islam.

As a spiritual-but-skeptical agnostic, I personally don’t believe that the existence of God can be proven or disproven. Based on my own life experiences and the state of the world at large, there are times when I believe God exists. However, there are at least as many times when I doubt the existence of God. Although I see little point or spiritual fulfillment in believing in a God who does not help sustain us (by providing strength to help ourselves and others, NOT via divine intervention), perhaps I am actually a sort of Deist, one who believes in spirtual but not material creationism. Often my idea of God is what Jung called the collective unconscious. I want to believe that we all become part of God when we die.

I am a member of a humanist UU congregation, where I admit I don’t feel entirely comfortable. Nonetheless, I would feel even less comfortable in a Christian UU congregation.

Comment on Unitarian Universalist attitudes towards Christianity as Aversion Addiction by Who Do We Say That We Are « East Of Midnight

Who Do We Say That We Are « East Of Midnight — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 22:57:19 +0000

[...] that has been going on in parts of the UU universe of late. Rev. Tony Lorenzen talks about it here. Rev. Victoria Weinstein here. Rev. Peter Boullata here. And Rev. Tom Schade [...]

Comment on Unitarian Universalist attitudes towards Christianity as Aversion Addiction by Greg Newcomer

Greg Newcomer — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 02:53:29 +0000

Thanks so much for this. We started a group called ” Sanctuary” 20 years ago in our church where
UU’s who believed in God could freely discuss their beliefs and share the joy. This has been a great experience beyond just a theolgiacally safe discussion.. I now go to a Methodist Bible study weekly and am very involved in our church
I would really like to start a UUC fellowship . It maybe that this will help.
Thanks for your unique perspective.
God Bless you.

Comment on Unitarian Universalism as One Big Codependent System by ben stewart

ben stewart — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:51:27 +0000

Thank you Tony for a reply. However, i still see your insistence on describing a difference in pathological terms as dangerous to the idea of inclusion. There remain a number of UUs who continue to feel that the term God stands for a supernatural being who takes an active role in the Universe in contradiction to what we know about the nature of this world. Therefor when the Pulpit offers prayers to such a being, it not only appears to be a form of worship, but one, which by its format, demanding. This may be theological, but i feel it is deeper. The problem with most of our churches is that they lack an Adult Sunday school where such issues can be discussed. Trying to discover what is meant by the use of words like faith, worship, and the phrase “son of god” are important to working out working relationships. Such activities do draw upon the minister’s time but are likely doomed in most congregations by a lack of interest. ben

Comment on Unitarian Universalism as One Big Codependent System by revtony

revtony — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:57:58 +0000

Hi Ben, I’m sorry that you are missing my point. I’m not talking about differences in theology. I’m talking about having the type of averse reactions you seem to be demonstrating. The lens I am trying to look through I believe helps gives us all a way to name destructive behavior thus hopefully making communities more open and accepting places. I think the adverse reaction this idea is causing in some quarters only proves my point.

Comment on Unitarian Universalism as One Big Codependent System by ben stewart

ben stewart — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:29:23 +0000

Gee Whiz, i find this statement of yours frightful :”I am not arguing for a return to a liberal Christian only Unitarian Universalism, but I do believe we need to insist on naming the aversion addiction. If someone needs to be a community where there is never any mention of God, no one ever prays and religion itself is thought to be for lesser people, let’s be honest and tell them they don’t belong in our congregations”
What an astounding statement of exclusion. i’ve always considered Christian UUs to consider themselves as in alignment with the reported teachings of Jesus and not among those who saw such a figure as the actual Son of God. However, your snappy
diagnosis leaves me questioning that consideration and your perscription for the health of the organization, to cast out those without Faith (whatever that is) seems to be just a first step on a path to another conventional Protestant theology.
Reading the comments of those who favor a Christian UU system of thought i note the word faith used several times. What is meant by faith, is the prime question. Some Christian UUs may be insistent on the presence of an overarching supernatural being who can and does act in ways contrary to the natural processes of the earth for the benefit of those who “worship” Him/Her. At minimum i hope such UU folk still manage to see such a figure as either or both male and female. i can not read your words without getting the image of yet another moral failure, the failure of inclusion, so typical of religious figures who rely on gods as their witness. My way or the highway! indeed.